Marketing Automation: How CRM Data Gave Us a Seat At the Table
Highlights from this Episode
Highlights from this episode
Today our special guest is Andy Caron. Andy is a Marketo Consultant for Revenue Pulse. Andy is going to guide us in a very valuable discussion around developing a single source of truth for your MarTech stack, and the implications of doing it poorly. LeadCrunch[ai] uses artificial intelligence to drastically improve the performance of B2B demand generation campaigns through account-based "lookalike" modeling. Click the link for more information. https://leadcrunch.com/solutions/
Posted by LeadCrunch on Tuesday, July 9, 2019
Hosts: Dave Green & Jonathan Greene
Guest(s): Andy Caron
Topic: Marketing Automation
Subtopic: Marketing Leadership
Duration: 20 minutes
In this episode of the Green & Greene Show, the LeadCrunch B2B podcast, seasoned marketing experts discuss marketing automation with guest Andy Caron.
- Introducing Andy Caron, Fearless Marketo Consultant
- Marketing Automation: Chasing a Single Source of Truth
- Marketing Moves to the Big Table
- Common Mistakes in Marketing Data Collection
- … And how to fix them
- How to Choose a CRM That Will Scale
- Becoming Fearless
- The Winding Path to Marketing Leadership
[0:00:05.1] ANNOUNCER: Live from the city with the most perfect weather ever, San Diego California, all the way to the gleaming shores of Jacksonville, Florida, it’s the Green & Greene show. Here are your hosts, Dave Green and Jonathan Greene, goofing off instead of working while unlocking the mysteries of demand gen. The Green & Greene Show is brought to you by LeadCrunch, which creates B2B lookalike audiences.[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:35.0] JG: Green & Greene Show.
[0:00:38.8] DG: I love it when you bust a move, man.
[0:00:42.0] JG: That music’s so funky, I can’t stand it. I’m going to make up a rap next time. Anyway, Green & Greene Show, Roadshow Edition. I’m in beautiful, sunny San Diego, California. It’s a cool 70 degrees here. I left the airport, it was 98 degrees and 70% humidity in Florida. I’m living the dream. How are you doing, Dave?
[0:01:04.1] DG: I’m great.
Introducing Andy Caron, Fearless Marketo Consultant
[0:01:05.3] JG: Hey, our guest today is Andy Caron. She’s a Marketo consultant. We’ve read her posts. She’s kind of the bomb. She’s going to drop some mad funky knowledge on you, today, all about developing a single source of truth for the mar-tech stack so you can be less idiotic with your marketing efforts.
[0:01:27.8] DG: You know, the thing about people who really know Marketo is that they’re probably a step above the people who are using some of the other kinds of marketing automation platforms because it’s pretty sophisticated. Everybody should sort of hold on, strap in, because I’m sure Andy is going to take them on a very fast ride into what’s good about that kind of stuff. Probably some fearlessness.
[0:01:59.0] AC: Well, don’t oversell me.
[0:02:03.3] JG: Impossible, I say. All right, let’s start. Listen, I’m not a Marketo guy, I’m sorry to admit. I’m sure you’ll forgive me. Currently, I’m a Hubspot guy, but that’s because Dave made me. I really am like an Infusionsoft guy, you know what I mean? Marketo is a mystery to me. I know a lot of people use it, but we’re really talking about sort of a level of construal above that in terms of talking about developing a single source of truth for your mar-tech stack. Can you tell me what you mean by that single source of truth?
Marketing Automation: Chasing a Single Source of Truth
[0:02:41.6] AC: Yeah. I think, as we get more mature with our mar-tech stacks, we have all these different tools that are telling us all these different things about where leads are coming from, what’s effective, what’s not effective or there’s no information. Either you have so much noise or so little data to work from that you really don’t know where to start when it comes to source.
My position on it is you need to pick a position. You need to pick one of your tools, one of the key tools. Usually, your marketing automation platform is the best place to start. You need a draw a line in the sand and just go ahead and say, “Okay, this is where my single source of truth is going to live, and I can disseminate that data out to my other platforms, but it needs to be in one place and I need to start with it there.”
Once you have established that that’s going to be where it lives, and obviously have organizational buy-in that that’s going to be where your source is going to be, it’s a matter of simply leveraging the platform and the data you have in it correctly in order to be able to have that data in usable places.
[0:03:56.2] JG: Hold on, wait a minute. I want to fly the flag for a minute here because you said organizational buy-in. Does that mean I’m going to have to go talk to the salespeople?
Marketing Moves to the Big Table
[0:04:03.2] AC: Yes, I’m sorry, you do. Probably finance and a bunch of other places in the organization. Marketing isn’t its own little side shop anymore. We have a seat at the big table when we’re talking about revenue. Now, we’re involved more than ever in that conversation, so in order to make sure that conversation is occurring in the right way, it needs to be cross-organizational. It can’t just be marketing doing its own thing and then either asking for forgiveness later or not telling anyone and just cheering in the corner about their success. That’s not going to drive the needle as far as being able to show that your efforts are impacting the bottom line of the business.
[0:04:51.8] JG: Yeah, what do you think, Dave? I tend to like the ask-for-forgiveness model.
[0:04:57.0] DG: That’s why you’re stuck with HubSpot, buddy. You could be graduating to Marketo, but no. You don’t want to work cross-functionally. No, it’s the only way. I totally agree with Andy. You know, I think the sign of a mature marketer is they’re not just focused on the top-of-the-funnel metrics like MQLs, how many I have, and what they cost.
At the bottom of the funnel, and I think they’re not working in isolation, they’re working cross- functionally to try to make a bigger impact. They’re working with product, they’re working with sales, they’re working with finance, and on down the line. I totally agree.
[0:05:35.4] JG: All right, I’ll go off the script here with this next question, but now you’ve got me curious. You mentioned your CRM, starting there as a single source of truth. I think our single source of truth is probably Salesforce. What are your thoughts about the juxtaposition of those two things, and how do you think about source in terms of the work?
[0:05:55.3] AC: When it comes to marketing automation and then CRM, it really is a marriage. You really aren’t going to have one functioning correctly without the other and vice versa. There is data that’s coming into your marketing automation platform via Salesforce, or whatever CRM you’re using, and then there’s also data coming in through, for example, Marketo.
It’s making sure you’re accounting for both sides of those entry points into how you think about the data you have in your system. You don’t, as a marketer, want to say, “Hey, I’m going to totally discount all these people that sales has found and that they’re reaching out to through outreach.io or whatever. I may impact them as a marketer later in their journey, and if I don’t account for that, then I’m leaving revenue on the table which marketing helped influence, too.”
Common Mistakes in Marketing Data Collection
[0:06:50.3] JG: What are some common mistakes that you see people making in terms of that?
[0:06:57.6] AC: There are a lot of mistakes. I think the top mistake is not capturing or using that data at all. I go into a lot of different systems. In Marketo, there’s a particular field which is lead source or person source. Nine times out of 10, that field is either primarily blank or they have taken the time to populate it with the value of “blank” or “unknown”.
Maybe you’ll see values like website, which, frankly, is kind of a given. They came in through the website. That’s awesome, right? They probably are marketing acquired, but, like shocker, they’re,”Okay. That’s not useful.” I think the biggest mistake is not arming yourself with useful data, not finding places, anything. Everything that you can get your hands on is useful data in one way or another.
If you don’t take the time to ensure you have that data, you’re robbing yourself later on. You’re missing out on the insights, the decision making, all of that. They can come from having good data sources to rely on and that sort of data ocean, if you will, of all of that original acquisition data that you can get if you’re using your website and UTMs or other tools correctly.
[0:08:33.8] JG: Interesting. Dave?
[0:08:36.4] DG: For the people who are newer to marketing, Andy, can you break down what UTMs are just so they have a clue?
[0:08:45.2] AC: Yeah, absolutely. Urchin Tracking Modules, everyone calls them UTMs, are essentially those little extensions you’ll see on a URL. If you’ve ever clicked through on a Facebook ad and you’ll see that it says Facebook and then see all these numbers and codes and some question marks and they’ll say source, medium, et cetera, this is essentially a way of tagging where someone came from. You could differentiate your UTMs between, let’s say, Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter in order to be able to understand what drove people to that particular blog post that you’re posting across those platforms.
[0:09:20.4] DG: Perfect, thank you.
[0:09:22.0] JG: Does Marketo pull that in directly?
[0:09:24.5] AC: Marketo has the capability to pull it in, but you need a little bit of additional script in order to carry it across multiple pages. It can pull it in on a form, no problem. A little bit of additional script will help pull it across multiple page visits until they actually do complete that, and there are other components.
Marketo actually captures the very first inbound URL that you’ve ever come in on, and it will hold that for days, weeks, months, years until that same cookied lead fills out the form and identifies themselves. You actually have their very first source, if you will, the inbound impetus that brought them to the brand for the first time, stored in the system, ready for you whenever you’re going to go get it.
[0:10:12.7] JG: Is that a hidden form field that actually pulls it in?
[0:10:15.8] AC: It’s not a hidden form field. It’s a native field inside of Marketo. Most people don’t even know it’s there.
[0:10:21.5] JG: Well, I might just switch to Marketo if you keep making it.
[0:10:26.8] AC: I had a subset of instances of HubSpot, nine of them actually in one organization, and I can say I prefer Marketo.
[0:10:37.5] JG: All right, now that you’re talking about the differences in platforms, give me some advice if I’m net marketer. I mean, nobody wants to talk with these guys. Anyway, let’s pretend I’m a marketer who doesn’t have a CRM, and I’m going to go buy one. Give me some advice for purchasing a platform.
How to Choose a CRM That Will Scale
[0:10:55.0] AC: If we’re talking about CRM, typically, we’re talking Salesforce, right? You do have Dynamics, Sugar, some others out there, but really Salesforce kind of has the keys to the kingdom at this point. They have the largest ecosystem, the most integrations, pretty much everyone builds off of that one. Typically, it is going to be your easiest to use although it is a little bit more cost prohibitive at size than something like a Dynamics. For marketing automation, I really recommend picking something that is going to scale with you.
Most of them are priced out based on the size of your database as opposed to CRM, which is priced out based on the number of users you have in the system, so pick a system that will grow with you. Eloqua’s out there, but you need to be a coder to use it or you need to have a team of coders. I am not going lie. You just do; that’s just how it is. Marketo is definitely much more WYSIWYG, but there is a learning curve and you need to be prepared for that.
You also need to be prepared in this organization, if you are onboarding with it, to know that you’re probably going to have to pick someone in your organization and train them up because there are way, way, way more companies using Marketo than there are people who are Marketo-certified at this point. It’s just the way it is. HubSpot is a great SMB tool. It’s a great starter tool for getting your feet wet. I don’t find that it scales.
I think that, eventually, it gets to the point where you go from Marketo, which is this glorious sort of perfectly positioned filing cabinet where you can find anything and everything in it. It is like the index from some great library. HubSpot reaches a certain critical mass point where it starts to remind me of one of those conspiracy maps with the red string and the pins where you start trying to figure out what is the title of it.
[0:12:39.7] JG: It is true, though. I worry with this.
[0:12:42.5] AC: It is a fabulous tool for new business owners who are trying to get into marking automation, and I think they do probably one of the best jobs in the market for thought leadership, actually. There’s Pardot, which is inside of Salesforce. It’s their marketing cloud. I find it to be good until a point, and then you start wanting to do things like attribution and you really have one hand tied behind your back, so it can be a little bit tricky. There are a variety of other tools out there and there are also ESPs.
[0:13:19.5] JG: Does that mean you can only repeat the mind?
[0:13:23.1] AC: No, so email service providers, that would be your MailChimps of the world, right? Then there is burgeoning market happening for B2C automation that is really doing some really fascinating things right now around in the moment, truly one-to-one unique experience. You abandon your cart and you have a thousand dollars’ worth of something in there and they’re on it. It’s amazing, but there are a lot of options out there.
I think it is really just picking one that will grow the organization and digging down in on it. If you are, for example, going with Marketo, get a consultancy for the first six months or a year. You’re not going to know how to do best practice and there are 40 million ways to build something out outside of Marketo, which is what I love about it. Marketo is essentially that big 1980s bin of Legos that I think we all toyed around with at some point.
Most people today want the 52-piece little box set that is going to build you an X-wing. Marketo doesn’t do that. It doesn’t even give you the schematic to build something. It just goes, “Boom, here are all these Lego pieces, go build.” If you don’t have an architect working alongside you, you can build some really funky sort of MC extra type stuff that ends up really confusing people later.
[0:14:48.5] JG: Awesome. I read an article a little while back by some know-it-all, I don’t really remember who wrote it. It was called, “What a Year of Being Fearless Taught Me”.
[0:15:00.6] AC: Oh, I know, what a shmuck. Who would name something that?
[0:15:03.5] JG: No, I was just kidding. That was actually an article that you wrote, and it’s only a year ago. You were in the inaugural class of the Fearless 50. Tell me about that. What’s that all about?
[0:15:15.2] AC: Fearless 50 is a really cool program that Marketo came out with last year. I was fortunate enough to be nominated to the inaugural class and was selected for the work that I do running the user group for Marketo here in Chicago. It’s a fascinating program, and I really love that they are expanding it out this year. It’s geared toward helping marketers figure out what the path to leadership looks like and how they can be better leaders both in the short term and on their long term paths.
The road to CML is where they were positioning it originally and when I first was nominated, I thought, “Oh geez, I am not at that upper echelon yet. What are they doing naming me for this? I am not that kind of person.” Then I realized that it really is about people who want to lead and want to learn how to be better leaders. They have just opened up the applications for the 2019 class, and you don’t have to be a Marketo customer to apply.
You can literally be in marketing anywhere and apply and they are pairing you up with people like Sarah Kennedy who is leading the team for Marketo for marketing for one-on-one mentoring and then providing mentors like myself who were in the program last year for one-on-one as well. It’s really just a way to explore leadership and push yourself and challenge this preconception I think that a lot of us marketers have, which is, “I am in the trenches. I am a data geek. I am doing all of these other things. I am not a leader.”
But we are leaders, and I think we need to become more comfortable with leading if we are going to continue to be part of the revenue conversation.
The Winding Path to Marketing Leadership
[0:17:09.5] JG: Dave, how would you describe the road to marketing leadership?
[0:17:14.8] DG: Painful. You know, unfortunately, I have learned a lot more from doing it wrong than I ever did when I did it right. A lot of times, you just have to get out there and go for it, but to Andy’s point, it’s surprising how many people are willing to share with you what they’ve learned about leadership and other things if you just ask. I think you have to ask, and she makes that point in her blog, which is a really good one. I think people don’t always do that.
They just assume, “I can’t have this person as a mentor because I am not worthy,” and it’s self-defeating. There is no reason to have that point of view, and of course, there are tons of great books and other resources. It doesn’t have to just be people, which can be scary. It can just be a book that you read and then work up the courage to ask someone.
I think that is actually a really good thing, and I have one big question for Andy. You went through this. What’s the one thing that you learned about leadership that was most surprising as a result of going through the program?
[0:18:29.2] AC: I think the thing that sticks out for me from this last year most is that leadership really doesn’t look like what people think it looks like inside their heads. You don’t make yourself a leader. Other people make you a leader. You do the best you can and you think about empowering others in every way that you can find to do that, and other people will choose to follow you if you do that well. That’s what makes you a leader.
It’s not about saying, “I have a title,” or, “It’s my job to tell these people what to do.” It is about helping others to be better at what they’re doing and reaping the benefit of that as a team.
[0:19:18.4] JG: I think it was John Locke who said, “The right to govern is derived from the consent of the governed,” or something like that.
[0:19:29.2] DG: Something like that.
[0:19:29.8] AC: I like that.
[0:19:30.6] JG: Yeah, it is good stuff. I’m trying to be clever right now.
All right, it’s obvious that you’re a fast burner and you’re going to end up in senior leadership somewhere very soon if people are smart and they know what they are doing. They’ll come and hire you. Remember, you heard it here first and we had the first interview. So, hopefully when you inherit your kingdom, you’ll come back in and speak some more on the Green and Greene Show.
[0:20:04.0] AC: I look forward to it.
[0:20:06.8] JG: All right.
[0:20:07.1] DG: Thank you, Andy.
[0:20:07.6] AC: Thank you.
[0:20:08.4] JG: I’m going to play the music. It’s the Green & Greene Show, Roadshow Edition. It’s go time; go back to work.[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:20:13.8] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for tuning in to the Green & Greene Show by LeadCrunch. Green & Greene think differently about B2B and are starting a movement to transform demand gen. If you have ideas for topics or would like to be a guest, send an e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org. If you’d like to find more customers, visit our website to talk to one of our demand gen guides, www.leadcrunch.com.[END]